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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>><I would like to stress out that attracting users is what makes the system live. If the potential users are lost in the complexity they will decide to abandon (unless they have motivation - such as big community - tutorials - a set of working systems … However, all that comes from the community which might not be created in the first place due the complexity). Of course, this does not concern professional users which are used to complexity and their focus is the technical specifications.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Agreed. This is why we do have tutorials ;-) Do you think that the current level of complexity of the Rock tutorials would make new users go away ? ><<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I cannot give a definitive answer since I did not implement those tutorials myself, Besides the content of the website has evolved (and improved) since the last time I saw it (By the way, there are some html errors now but I guess you are currently modifying it) . The tutorials are well made . There is an introduction, at the end of each tutorial you summarize what did the user do and what did he learn and so. However, I got the impression that there are a lot of things to concentrate on. I got the impression that there is no common example which might help the users to focus. (like the turtle example from the ROS). <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Sometimes it is just details like for example the fact that you are based Orocos. As a beginner I would go and read about Orocos and maybe say “<i>oh, that’s so complicated, If I have to learn how to use Orocos and Rock I will never make it…</i>” <span style='font-family:Wingdings'>ß</span> this is just a simulation . Another detail (but you can’t help it and I find it fine), there are two languages to which you have to integrate the code: C++ and Ruby. ROS uses only one. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Anyhow, I am closely following your project. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Tell me when you have a Pdf version of the manual.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I am sure I’ll have some questions later on (An interesting point would be integrating into the Rock framework the components executing on a microcontroller connected to the linux computer – can Rock do that?).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Ciao, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Jan<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>-----------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>Jan SLIWKA<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dr. Eng. Contractor at ETD CMRE (ex-Nurc)</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Software engineering, algorithms, robotics<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>web: <a href="http://www.jan-sliwka.net/">www.jan-sliwka.net</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> Sylvain Joyeux [mailto:sylvain.joyeux@dfki.de] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 14, 2012 11:30 AM<br><b>To:</b> Jan Sliwka<br><b>Cc:</b> 'Thomas Roehr'; rock-dev@dfki.de<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Rock-dev] Fwd: RE: Avalon's Middleware<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 09/14/2012 11:16 AM, Jan Sliwka wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>>< <a href="http://www.rock-robotics.org/stable/documentation/about/others.html">http://www.rock-robotics.org/stable/documentation/about/others.html</a>><<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Nice comparison site. I have a comment about the first point of your comparison. The cost of the connection based model is a big number of connections.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal>You have the same cost with topics, as -- when reusing components and/or when your system grows -- you need to start remapping topic names (which, in effect, has the same complexity than explicit connections).<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>If I got it right you can use Roby to have graphical representation of your system (The components and their connections i.e. the connection graph). <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Have you thought of some graphical tools to assist you with creating this connection graph (like Matlab-Simulink)? Or do you find that not necessary.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>We have thought about it and it is definitely on the "must-have" list, but we unfortunately have no ressources for that these days (might change in Q2 2013). I am currently approaching the BRIDE developers (from the BRICS european project) to see if we could have cooperation there. Additionally, building such a tool from the current Roby visualization code is on my pet-project list.<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>>< On that front, it might be of interest for you that we are currently helping MARUM to run a new AUV (and in the future, all their systems) using Rock. The drivers and control software will be released as open source. ><<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>When do you think you will finish that code? It is just to have an idea when you will start releasing reusable components on your website (which helps to make Rock more attractive).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I plan to release driver components ASAP (as we already agreed with MARUM that these components should be made public). On the control side, we <br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><br>>< [snip new module creation examples]<br>In practice, component creation is a process that will take 2% of the overall development time. It is, as you point out, very important to attract new users (and we are interested in comments on how to improve it), but has very little effect on the overall development times. ><<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I would like to stress out that attracting users is what makes the system live. If the potential users are lost in the complexity they will decide to abandon (unless they have motivation - such as big community - tutorials - a set of working systems … However, all that comes from the community which might not be created in the first place due the complexity). Of course, this does not concern professional users which are used to complexity and their focus is the technical specifications.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Agreed. This is why we do have tutorials ;-) Do you think that the current level of complexity of the Rock tutorials would make new users go away ?<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>An idea for improving Rock and at the same time attract the users is to create a game made only using Rock components (The “game of Rock”). The game should use the maximum of reusable components (ex Vizkit for visualization). The best game might be one with moving vehicles/robots since it is close to the robot context. It can be a manual fight - with joystick/keyboard interfacing components. We could also imagine a fight between algorithms if the purpose is to create autonomous competing vehicles… <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>That would be a very nice addition to the current tutorials :P<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><br>><<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]>Do you have a simulator?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>As Thomas mentioned, we have our own simulator that just got released as open source. However, while it kind-a works for underwater applications, it is not ideal. We did look pretty hard for a good open source underwater simulator, but never found one. Would you have any pointer in that respect?<br>><<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I have found many open simulators but still didn’t test any of them. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman , serif","serif"'>uMVS : MOOS 2D simulator. I think there are others but I don’t know if they are open source (like M. E. West, T. R. Collins, J. R. Bogle, A. Melim and M. Novitzky, "An Overview Of Autonomous Underwater Vehicle Systems And Sensors At Georgie Tech".). </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman , serif","serif"'>UWsim: developed by IRSLab (Jaume-I University, Castellón).</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I think it has been evaluated by the Avalon team and rejected. Don't know the specifics however.<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>3.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman , serif","serif"'>MORSE: 3D Simulator from the LAAS - France (Bullet physical engine based) (<a href="http://www.openrobots.org/morse/doc/stable/morse.html">http://www.openrobots.org/morse/doc/stable/morse.html</a>). It is multi-purpose. It might be interesting to collaborate with them to make one simulator for all the environments. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>That and gazebo are definitely on the list of "needs to be checked out more thoroughly". However, the issue with MORSE so far is the integration with Blender. We would like to move towards headless simulation engines (with associated GUIs !!!) as it enables interesting research prospects.<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Sylvain Joyeux (Dr.Ing.)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Senior Researcher<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Space & Security Robotics<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Underwater Robotics<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>!!! Achtung, neue Telefonnummer!!!<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Standort Bremen:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>DFKI GmbH<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Robotics Innovation Center<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Robert-Hooke-Straße 5<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>28359 Bremen, Germany<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Phone: +49 (0)421 178-454136<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Fax: +49 (0)421 218-454150<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>E-Mail: <a href="mailto:robotik@dfki.de">robotik@dfki.de</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Weitere Informationen: <a href="http://www.dfki.de/robotik">http://www.dfki.de/robotik</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>-----------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Deutsches Forschungszentrum fuer Kuenstliche Intelligenz GmbH<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Firmensitz: Trippstadter Straße 122, D-67663 Kaiserslautern<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Geschaeftsfuehrung: Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Wolfgang Wahlster<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>(Vorsitzender) Dr. Walter Olthoff<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Amtsgericht Kaiserslautern, HRB 2313<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Sitz der Gesellschaft: Kaiserslautern (HRB 2313)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>USt-Id.Nr.: DE 148646973<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Steuernummer: 19/673/0060/3<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>----------------------------------------------------------------------- <o:p></o:p></pre></div> <BR/><BR>
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