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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 09/14/2012 11:16 AM, Jan Sliwka
wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div class="WordSection1"><br>
<p class="MsoNormal">>< <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.rock-robotics.org/stable/documentation/about/others.html">http://www.rock-robotics.org/stable/documentation/about/others.html</a>><<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nice comparison site. I have a comment
about the first point of your comparison. The cost of the
connection based model is a big number of connections.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
You have the same cost with topics, as -- when reusing components
and/or when your system grows -- you need to start remapping topic
names (which, in effect, has the same complexity than explicit
connections).<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:000601cd9259$a4e777f0$eeb667d0$@nato.int"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">If I got it right you can use Roby to have
graphical representation of your system (The components and
their connections i.e. the connection graph). <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Have you thought of some graphical tools to
assist you with creating this connection graph (like
Matlab-Simulink)? Or do you find that not necessary.<br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
We have thought about it and it is definitely on the "must-have"
list, but we unfortunately have no ressources for that these days
(might change in Q2 2013). I am currently approaching the BRIDE
developers (from the BRICS european project) to see if we could have
cooperation there. Additionally, building such a tool from the
current Roby visualization code is on my pet-project list.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:000601cd9259$a4e777f0$eeb667d0$@nato.int"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">>< On that front, it might be of
interest for you that we are currently helping MARUM to run a
new AUV (and in the future, all their systems) using Rock. The
drivers and control software will be released as open source.
><<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">When do you think you will finish that
code? It is just to have an idea when you will start releasing
reusable components on your website (which helps to make Rock
more attractive).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
I plan to release driver components ASAP (as we already agreed with
MARUM that these components should be made public). On the control
side, we <br>
<blockquote cite="mid:000601cd9259$a4e777f0$eeb667d0$@nato.int"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
>< [snip new module creation examples]<br>
In practice, component creation is a process that will take 2%
of the overall development time. It is, as you point out, very
important to attract new users (and we are interested in
comments on how to improve it), but has very little effect on
the overall development times. ><<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I would like to stress out that attracting
users is what makes the system live. If the potential users
are lost in the complexity they will decide to abandon (unless
they have motivation - such as big community - tutorials - a
set of working systems … However, all that comes from the
community which might not be created in the first place due
the complexity). Of course, this does not concern professional
users which are used to complexity and their focus is the
technical specifications.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
Agreed. This is why we do have tutorials ;-) Do you think that the
current level of complexity of the Rock tutorials would make new
users go away ?<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:000601cd9259$a4e777f0$eeb667d0$@nato.int"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">An idea for improving Rock and at the same
time attract the users is to create a game made only using
Rock components (The “game of Rock”). The game should use the
maximum of reusable components (ex Vizkit for visualization).
The best game might be one with moving vehicles/robots since
it is close to the robot context. It can be a manual fight -
with joystick/keyboard interfacing components. We could also
imagine a fight between algorithms if the purpose is to create
autonomous competing vehicles… <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
That would be a very nice addition to the current tutorials :P<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:000601cd9259$a4e777f0$eeb667d0$@nato.int"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
><<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]-->Do you have a
simulator?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">As Thomas mentioned, we have our own
simulator that just got released as open source. However,
while it kind-a works for underwater applications, it is not
ideal. We did look pretty hard for a good open source
underwater simulator, but never found one. Would you have any
pointer in that respect?<br>
><<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have found many open simulators but still
didn’t test any of them. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times
New Roman","serif""><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times
New Roman","serif"">uMVS : MOOS 2D simulator.
I think there are others but I don’t know if they are open
source (like M. E. West, T. R. Collins, J. R. Bogle, A.
Melim and M. Novitzky, "An Overview Of Autonomous Underwater
Vehicle Systems And Sensors At Georgie Tech".). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times
New Roman","serif""><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times
New Roman","serif"">UWsim: developed by
IRSLab (Jaume-I University, Castellón).</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
I think it has been evaluated by the Avalon team and rejected. Don't
know the specifics however.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:000601cd9259$a4e777f0$eeb667d0$@nato.int"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times
New Roman","serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times
New Roman","serif""><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">3.<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times
New Roman","serif"">MORSE: 3D Simulator from
the LAAS - France (Bullet physical engine based) (<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.openrobots.org/morse/doc/stable/morse.html">http://www.openrobots.org/morse/doc/stable/morse.html</a>).
It is multi-purpose. It might be interesting to collaborate
with them to make one simulator for all the environments. </span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
That and gazebo are definitely on the list of "needs to be checked
out more thoroughly". However, the issue with MORSE so far is the
integration with Blender. We would like to move towards headless
simulation engines (with associated GUIs !!!) as it enables
interesting research prospects.<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Sylvain Joyeux (Dr.Ing.)
Senior Researcher
Space & Security Robotics
Underwater Robotics
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