<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2012/9/14 Matthias Goldhoorn <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:matthias.goldhoorn@dfki.de" target="_blank">matthias.goldhoorn@dfki.de</a>></span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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Few remarks to the Simulation.<div class="im"><br>
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On 14.09.2012 11:29, Sylvain Joyeux wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On 09/14/2012 11:16 AM, Jan Sliwka
wrote:<br>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div><br>
<p class="MsoNormal">>< <a href="http://www.rock-robotics.org/stable/documentation/about/others.html" target="_blank">http://www.rock-robotics.org/stable/documentation/about/others.html</a>><<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nice comparison site. I have a comment
about the first point of your comparison. The cost of the
connection based model is a big number of connections.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
You have the same cost with topics, as -- when reusing components
and/or when your system grows -- you need to start remapping topic
names (which, in effect, has the same complexity than explicit
connections).<br>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If I got it right you can use Roby to
have graphical representation of your system (The components
and their connections i.e. the connection graph). <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Have you thought of some graphical tools
to assist you with creating this connection graph (like
Matlab-Simulink)? Or do you find that not necessary.<br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
We have thought about it and it is definitely on the "must-have"
list, but we unfortunately have no ressources for that these days
(might change in Q2 2013). I am currently approaching the BRIDE
developers (from the BRICS european project) to see if we could
have cooperation there. Additionally, building such a tool from
the current Roby visualization code is on my pet-project list.<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">>< On that front, it might be of
interest for you that we are currently helping MARUM to run
a new AUV (and in the future, all their systems) using Rock.
The drivers and control software will be released as open
source. ><<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">When do you think you will finish that
code? It is just to have an idea when you will start
releasing reusable components on your website (which helps
to make Rock more attractive).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
I plan to release driver components ASAP (as we already agreed
with MARUM that these components should be made public). On the
control side, we <br>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
>< [snip new module creation examples]<br>
In practice, component creation is a process that will take
2% of the overall development time. It is, as you point out,
very important to attract new users (and we are interested
in comments on how to improve it), but has very little
effect on the overall development times. ><<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I would like to stress out that
attracting users is what makes the system live. If the
potential users are lost in the complexity they will decide
to abandon (unless they have motivation - such as big
community - tutorials - a set of working systems … However,
all that comes from the community which might not be created
in the first place due the complexity). Of course, this does
not concern professional users which are used to complexity
and their focus is the technical specifications.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
Agreed. This is why we do have tutorials ;-) Do you think that the
current level of complexity of the Rock tutorials would make new
users go away ?<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">An idea for improving Rock and at the
same time attract the users is to create a game made only
using Rock components (The “game of Rock”). The game should
use the maximum of reusable components (ex Vizkit for
visualization). The best game might be one with moving
vehicles/robots since it is close to the robot context. It
can be a manual fight - with joystick/keyboard interfacing
components. We could also imagine a fight between algorithms
if the purpose is to create autonomous competing vehicles…
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
That would be a very nice addition to the current tutorials :P<br>
<br>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
><<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span>·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span>Do you have a
simulator?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">As Thomas mentioned, we have our own
simulator that just got released as open source. However,
while it kind-a works for underwater applications, it is not
ideal. We did look pretty hard for a good open source
underwater simulator, but never found one. Would you have
any pointer in that respect?<br>
><<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have found many open simulators but
still didn’t test any of them. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span><span>1.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span>uMVS : MOOS 2D
simulator. I think there are others but I don’t know if
they are open source (like M. E. West, T. R. Collins, J.
R. Bogle, A. Melim and M. Novitzky, "An Overview Of
Autonomous Underwater Vehicle Systems And Sensors At
Georgie Tech".). <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span><span>2.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span>UWsim: developed by
IRSLab (Jaume-I University, Castellón).</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
I think it has been evaluated by the Avalon team and rejected.
Don't know the specifics however.<br>
</blockquote></div>
UWSim was labelb by our students as an "dead" project, without any
good documentation, afaik this was the reason to don't use this.<div class="im"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span><span>3.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span>MORSE: 3D Simulator
from the LAAS - France (Bullet physical engine based) (<a href="http://www.openrobots.org/morse/doc/stable/morse.html" target="_blank">http://www.openrobots.org/morse/doc/stable/morse.html</a>).
It is multi-purpose. It might be interesting to
collaborate with them to make one simulator for all the
environments. </span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
That and gazebo are definitely on the list of "needs to be checked
out more thoroughly". However, the issue with MORSE so far is the
integration with Blender. We would like to move towards headless
simulation engines (with associated GUIs !!!) as it enables
interesting research prospects.<br>
</blockquote></div>
Morse as we looked to it also the capabilitys for external
connections was low.<br></div></blockquote><div><br>What do you mean there? I would be very interesting in understanding the issues you have with MORSE, or the limitations you found.<br>Which version of MORSE did you try?<br>
<br>Charles.<br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<br>
I'm not direkct in the evaluation, but this is what i have in mind,
maybe (cc't) some of our students could also give some remaks to
this.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><div><div class="h5">
<pre cols="72">--
Sylvain Joyeux (Dr.Ing.)
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Space & Security Robotics
Underwater Robotics
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<pre cols="72">--
Dipl.-Inf. Matthias Goldhoorn
Space and Underwater Robotic
Universität Bremen
FB 3 - Mathematik und Informatik
AG Robotik
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