[Rock-dev] Fwd: RE: Avalon's Middleware

Fri Sep 14 13:00:21 CEST 2012

Few remarks to the Simulation.

On 14.09.2012 11:29, Sylvain Joyeux wrote:
> On 09/14/2012 11:16 AM, Jan Sliwka wrote:
>>
>> >< http://www.rock-robotics.org/stable/documentation/about/others.html><
>>
>> Nice comparison site.  I have a comment about the first point of your 
>> comparison. The cost of the connection based model is a big number of 
>> connections.
>>
> You have the same cost with topics, as -- when reusing components 
> and/or when your system grows -- you need to start remapping topic 
> names (which, in effect, has the same complexity than explicit 
> connections).
>>
>> If I got it right you can use Roby to have graphical representation 
>> of your system (The components and their connections i.e. the 
>> connection graph).
>>
>> Have you thought of some graphical tools to assist you with creating 
>> this connection graph (like Matlab-Simulink)? Or do you find that not 
>> necessary.
>>
> We have thought about it and it is definitely on the "must-have" list, 
> but we unfortunately have no ressources for that these days (might 
> change in Q2 2013). I am currently approaching the BRIDE developers 
> (from the BRICS european project) to see if we could have cooperation 
> there. Additionally, building such a tool from the current Roby 
> visualization code is on my pet-project list.
>>
>>
>> >< On that front, it might be of interest for you that we are 
>> currently helping MARUM to run a new AUV (and in the future, all 
>> their systems) using Rock. The drivers and control software will be 
>> released as open source. ><
>>
>> When do you think you will finish that code? It is just to have an 
>> idea when you will start releasing reusable components on your 
>> website (which helps to make Rock more attractive).
>>
> I plan to release driver components ASAP (as we already agreed with 
> MARUM that these components should be made public). On the control 
> side, we
>>
>>
>> >< [snip new module creation examples]
>> In practice, component creation is a process that will take 2% of the 
>> overall development time. It is, as you point out, very important to 
>> attract new users (and we are interested in comments on how to 
>> improve it), but has very little effect on the overall development 
>> times. ><
>>
>> I would like to stress out that attracting users is what makes the 
>> system live. If the potential users are lost in the complexity they 
>> will decide to abandon (unless they have motivation - such as big 
>> community - tutorials - a set of working systems ... However, all 
>> that comes from the community which might not be created in the first 
>> place due the complexity). Of course, this does not concern 
>> professional users which are used to complexity and their focus is 
>> the technical specifications.
>>
> Agreed. This is why we do have tutorials ;-) Do you think that the 
> current level of complexity of the Rock tutorials would make new users 
> go away ?
>>
>> An idea for improving Rock and at the same time attract the users is 
>> to create a game made only using Rock components (The "game of 
>> Rock"). The game should use the maximum of reusable components (ex 
>> Vizkit for visualization). The best game might be one with moving 
>> vehicles/robots since it is close to the robot context. It can be a 
>> manual fight - with joystick/keyboard interfacing components. We 
>> could also imagine a fight between algorithms if the purpose is to 
>> create autonomous competing vehicles...
>>
> That would be a very nice addition to the current tutorials :P
>
>>
>> ><
>>
>> ·Do you have a simulator?
>>
>> As Thomas mentioned, we have our own simulator that just got released 
>> as open source. However, while it kind-a works for underwater 
>> applications, it is not ideal. We did look pretty hard for a good 
>> open source underwater simulator, but never found one. Would you have 
>> any pointer in that respect?
>> ><
>>
>> I have found many open simulators but still didn't test any of them.
>>
>> 1.uMVS : MOOS 2D simulator. I think there are others but I don't know 
>> if they are open source (like M. E. West, T. R. Collins, J. R. Bogle, 
>> A. Melim and M. Novitzky, "An Overview Of Autonomous Underwater 
>> Vehicle Systems And Sensors At Georgie Tech".).
>>
>> 2.UWsim: developed by IRSLab (Jaume-I University, Castellón).
>>
> I think it has been evaluated by the Avalon team and rejected. Don't 
> know the specifics however.
UWSim was labelb by our students as an "dead" project, without any good 
documentation, afaik this was the reason to don't use this.
>>
>> 3.MORSE: 3D Simulator from the LAAS - France (Bullet physical engine 
>> based) (http://www.openrobots.org/morse/doc/stable/morse.html). It is 
>> multi-purpose.  It might be interesting to collaborate with them to 
>> make one simulator for all the environments.
>>
> That and gazebo are definitely on the list of "needs to be checked out 
> more thoroughly". However, the issue with MORSE so far is the 
> integration with Blender. We would like to move towards headless 
> simulation engines (with associated GUIs !!!) as it enables 
> interesting research prospects.
Morse as we looked to it also the capabilitys for external connections 
was low.

I'm not direkct in the evaluation, but this is what i have in mind, 
maybe (cc't) some of our students could also give some remaks to this.

> -- 
> Sylvain Joyeux (Dr.Ing.)
> Senior Researcher
>
> Space&  Security Robotics
> Underwater Robotics
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-- 
  Dipl.-Inf. Matthias Goldhoorn
  Space and Underwater Robotic

  Universität Bremen
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